By Comic Relief
If you were a huge comics culture enthusiast or superhero character fanboy you can’t help but wonder why DC has no ability to compete with Marvel. There are sites on the web that spend 24/7 arguing about this issue. This article attempts to speculate about what barriers stand in the way of action/adventure competitive DC comics. Yet we first need to make a detour in entertainment genres.
Unfortunately we do not do not discuss sports enough at LIH, so parts of the next presentation may seem a little jarring. But please be patient with the introduction, you need some set up to adapt to the questions that this article is asking.
If you are an American sports fanatic, there’s no bigger story than what team will NFL Quarterback Peyton Manning choose for his next team. Not to be confused with his father, former Quarterback Archie Manning or his younger brother current New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning. Nationally of any professional athlete, despite his recent injury, surgery and recovery, Quarterback Peyton Manning is the player to watch.
Why because at 36, 6 ft. 5 in and 230 lb., Manning isn’t so much a young man in professional sports as he is an extremely accomplished professional. Though professionals are vital longer than in the past, his age would place him in his later career. A free agent after fourteen seasons (from 1998 to 2011) with the Indianapolis Colts, Peyton Manning is looking to sign with the last team that would give him a shot at a Super Bowl. Yet this is dependent on whether he makes the right team selection. Fortunately there are many cities that want him to sign with them. Why?
Because with an extremely successful passing record, he completes 4,682 of the 7,210 passes he attempts, there’s very little reason to doubt his qualifications for winning the Pro Bowl MVP in 2005, being a Super Bowl champion (XLI) in 2006 or a Super Bowl MVP (XLI) of the same year. For the Indianapolis Colts he is the all-time leader in career wins, passing touchdowns, pass attempts, pass completions and passing yards [1].
Below please find evidence of the fan obsession surrounding the Indiana quarterback and past super bowl winner.
Peyton-Palooza
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Just like professional football players, professionals in the entertainment industry can be quantified and statistically evaluated also. In fact it happens everyday.
When a professional Director like Joss Whedon is contacted to put in a bid to direct a new the Avengers film all of his stats are reviewed to determine what he might be able to offer that hiring company. Commanding millions of dollars, that studio or company would have a lot to lose if the choice of professional isn’t right. If the professional doesn’t know how to work with the professionals he has hired, the dramatic results will not likely be convincing to audiences. If the professional’s instincts are not fine enough he may not forecast what audiences want to see or pay for. And if the director doesn’t understand the history of the genre or what will likely be distributed at the same time, as the film he’s making will likely misinterpret what will be satisfying to viewing audiences. All information pertaining to these considerations should appear within the prospectus to direct the film in question.
When company’s in competitive fields attempt to: 1. Protect their current market share within the field, 2. Protect company secrets, and 3. Restrict or halt discussions of their working processes that can be copied or distributed; they sometimes place restrictive covenants within the contracts. Restrictive covenants basically say that working processes cannot be divulged for the public or other employers in employment interviews or within the course of working for a new employer. In this situation an employer can be said to have a proprietary interest in keeping their professional secrets confidential [2]. There’s no way to know whether any director who worked with Marvel was ever required to sign any restrictive covenants, yet his conduct at a recent interview might provide some clues regarding his contract signing process.
Writer Michael Leader recounts Joss’ statements; “he told us that “they really did let me make my own film“. He continued:
- “They said, ‘here are the things we need; here is the villain, we want this to happen; we need the conflict here; here’s the third act, it will involve the following’. Which I’m fine with. That’s great, give me the parameters, because then I know where I’m going, and it does some of the legwork for me. And I know what their agenda is in terms of style, and what we’re delivering, in terms of thrills and the adherence to the Marvel universe, with which I’m very familiar.”
He continued:
- “But it was like comics, because they didn’t interfere. I told them ‘this is the kind of movie I want to make’, and they said ‘all right, make that movie’. And that is what happened. And they were as unmeddlesome as any studio I’ve ever worked with, even though they had the very strict touchstones that had to happen. So it was a weirdly free experience [3].”
Given the details offered from his interview, do you believe Joss Whedon was required to sign restrictive covenants? Do you believe his expression of these details would be a direct challenge to a restrictive covenants contractual agreement?
Please join our discussion Tuesday 3/13/2012@7pmEST/12UTC
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ARTICLE REFERENCES:
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning
[2] http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Restrictive+Covenant
comicreleaf
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Comic Relief
parisienne
littlebells
Lurker
ozzie20
Open Book
LIH
linkedinhollywood.com 
CR-
Great comparrison and article. I thought Joss’s statement about the dynamics of working with Marvel was interesting.
Do u think Marvel is better with respecting artist and letting them to do what they do best than DC?
Can’t wait for the discussion.
I agree with OB! Great comparison and article!
OB,
Excellent question. But I don’t know; I imagine studios fall into patterns of working that Directors either enjoy or don’t. Marvel seems to be extremely consistant in their working methods and their success at the box office validates this approach.
Do you think DC should follow this approach?
OB, I have another question for you?
Why do you think DC doesn’t hire filmmaking MVP’s like say: Sam Raimi, Kenneth Branagh, or Jon Favreau?
HAHAHAHA!! U dangle a carrot out here like this CR will only prove my great strength. After all, u know how much I LOVE WARNER BROS!!!
Let see? One would assume given DC/Warner Bros. selected Christopher Nolan to direct Batman they had some ability to give artist some respect. However, Chris N. had to fight for that respect. I think what happened with Green Lantern is really a testimony to how WB really treats directors with bean counters getting too involved in the creative process. Now they are talking about replacing the director for Green Lantern? Goodness! What established director would want to sign up to fight with bean counters at WB? Lets see a show of hands?
OB,
I’m glad you brought up Green Lantern. This is an example of DC/Warner Bro’s using old knowledge to answer contemporary problems.
Yes, Yes, Yes, We learned that to make great movies you had to use great Directors, Actors, screen writers, composers, and special effects houses to make the whole thing sing.
So DC hires Martin Campbell, a veteran filmmaker to make Green Lantern. That was good planning, and after aceing Casino Royale he looked like a good Action/adventure choice. He also made golden eye and the Mask of Zorro.
Neither of which were contemporary super hero movies, and certainly not at the quality Marvel has mastered.
And you are right; then DC/Warner’s unleashed the bean counters, micro managers, and suck ups and all was lost.
By the way Campbell took himself out of the running for the GL sequel. Claiming he doesn’t do them.
If you’re asking whether “Casino Royale” and “Golden Eye” are both James Bond, you are correct they are.
Would u say DC/WB don’t CARE or RESPECT their audiences interest? Meaning they expect to clean up at the Box Office using an old/tired method?
I believe you are absolutely right.
But more than that, bean counters or businessmen are running the studio which means happy meal logic “rules the roost.” Meaning these are business school grads who are not into literature, art, theatre, or film making of any kind.
They’re excited when they hit unprecedented price points, set up new marketing alliances, and guarantee their clients the highest ROI. That they can put on the resumes and nothing is wrong with this in isolation, but these events don’t in themselves make good movies. Pleasing audiences is a difficult science to master, so this work should be left to business-minded artists who have some capacity to hit a home run.
To save you the time, hear’s a little info on the the director’s I mentioned.
Drag Me To Hell_ Sam Raimi Interview
Kenneth Branagh
The Avengers Movie: Jon Favreau Interview
Excellent! Excellent! compilation of interviews. It really gives u some idea how Marvel works. Although, now I have a few more questions. However, I will wait until the discussion.
Why would there be a need for restrictive covenants? If the movie is based off of a comic book/tv show, aren’t all of the goods already on the table? The studio might require a certain order etc to things, but the directors artistic vision is his/her own. I would not think you would be able to put any type of “restriction” on that.
As an overall sports enthusiast, the Peyton Manning release was sad but yet expected. Just like in hollywood, it all boils down to money.
Hi Francesa,
I will let CR handle that great Q. How are u btw?
Francesa,
These are great points, and I’m so glad you brought them up.
The reason I wrote the article was like so many people I’ve wondered. “What’s so hard!!! DC has the surplus of characters, over 80 years of history and stories (as opposed to Marvel’s barely 50). What’s the hold up!!! Yawn!!!! And of course the typical fan boy remark is inevitable “DC/Warner’s sucks.”
The only reason I could imagine that would make it hard to compete was if Warner Bros. was too antiquated, or if directorial creators were legally bound or restricted from moving creative methods to other studios.
Whedon’s willingness to gab makes it appear as though, the primary option is the most likely. But I wanted to talk about it anyway.
******If I did not say so in the article, Michael Leader of Den of GeeK.com, wrote the Whedon article.
Hi CR!
Disregard my first question below given u have answered for me. Also, I tend to agree with the fanboys about WB.
Francesa,
“Why would there be a need for restrictive covenants? If the movie is based off of a comic book/tv show, aren’t all of the goods already on the table? The studio might require a certain order etc to things, but the directors artistic vision is his/her own.”
Well mam, you’re certainly correct. What the director brings to the table ultimately is his or hers. But let me remind of the all of the horrible movies Marvel or more precisely Fox and Sony made trying to perfect a winning super hero movie formula. A lot was learned over years of sometimes lackluster sometime bad films. And to be honest this accomplishment was not earned by DC because they were not putting out the most movies.
No pain, no gain.
Catwoman
Daredevil
Fantastic Four
Electra
Never saw these films and never will…
HAHAHAHA!! Why?
Well, personally, I think they just look “meh” and cheesy. The trailers just didn’t do anything for me. Oh wow, I did see Fantastic Four. That obviously made an impression.
http://sadtrombone.com/
LOL!! Love it!!
This is hilarious.
I don’t know how you do this,….excuse me.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Did u see the sequel to Fantastic 4?
Uuuuuuh…no. I didn’t even know there was one! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
I think a superhero film is like any other great film out there: all aspects have to come together or it’s going to be joke.
Yeah it was called Rise of the Silver Surfer. It was actually better than the first film in terms of its CGI and the plot. But it was still too contrived and the ending fell flat. TYPICAL!!
Hi All!
I won’t be able to make it to the discussion tonight. Great article CR!
No problem Paris. Although, u will be missed!!
Paris,
Sorry you can’t be here. Thanks for the compliment. 🙂
Hi Everyone.
Welcome to our discussion tonight. I will be the moderator instead of CR to give CR the chance to answer questions or comments. So for returning and first time visitors please feel free to ask questions or respond as well.
Comic Relief, like I said these are the questions I have for you.
Francesa u and I sorta have the same Q.
What significance does a “restrictive covenant” play in your article?
Hi Openbook,
I’m trying to catch up to the prior questions. Will be with you soon.
No problem!!
OB,
Usually when the law concerning restrictive covenants is discussed they’re usually talking about recipes, formulas, and even working methods. But this could refer to creative products as well. Even if they do not use this exact terminology the spirit of these protections can be present.
Or that was my assumption. I would love to find out I’m wrong, but if so what’s DC/Warners problem?
There u are!!
I answered what I thought DC/WB problem is up above.
Hi everyone!
Let me read the article and get caught up! 🙂
Hi LB!!
Big HUGS!!
Hi, LB.
CR-
I will move on to the next Q catch up when u can.
Is “restrictive covenant” a term that you would likely hear in Hollywood?
Please see previous answer.
It sounds like DC needs to remove there thumb out of a dark crevice and trust their directors to provide an incredible movie. Wow, I’m really out of my league here, so I may lurk for a while.
Speaking of lurking, HI LURKER!!! I saw you post on movie buzz and wanted to say hi!!! 🙂
U are never out of your league LB!!
Ditto!!!!!
haha! Thanks. 🙂
CR-
Where did u go? Are u off researching or writing some novel? Tick Tock!!
“Ahem”
CR-I forgot about those movies that you put up here. Cat Woman, Daredevil, Elektra, and Fantastic Four…yuck yuck and more yuck. I don’t know if the scripts were that bad or if they just did not cast them correctly.
I’m sure all of the above.
In terms of Miss Berry you can’t win all these awards for developing the movie for Dorothy Dandridge, win an Oscar, then phone in your performance for Catwoman. Sweetheart at least read the script.
She’s working harder accepting this award than she did in the whole Catwoman movie.
Yeah! This is not a good trip down memory lane for Berry. Ah! Well, I did like her in Dorothy Dandridge!!
I’m sorry to be so judgmental with Halle. She was fantastic when she developed roles that had historical depth and required her own research. As the clip illustrates:
But she (and all of the actors hurt themselves doing comic book movies) as though they don’t think they require the same effort. Some don’t know what to do, others assume that the role is satirical. All of the roles that have either produced big awards or big box office were done in realistic and serious manner.
Actors who have naturally been taught that comic books are dreck, cultural flotsam and jetsam, and below serious regard.
Actors have to have instincts and let’s face it comics were once considered cat food in terms of high cultural cuisine. Yet I’m pretty sure that is firmly in the past.
I could go on about how comics have improved in the last 20 years and how the range of writers from England have changed the landscape… Or instead of me telling you, I’ll let them speak for themselves:
Alan Moore:
Because for many he’s so controversial (in the comic sphere), Moore nearly saved comics from its own history, by introducing a literary edge that had not existed before.
Comics that inspired movies: “Swamp Thing,“ “League of Extraordinary Gentleman,” “V for Vendetta,” “Watchmen,” etc.
Neil Gaiman:
He’s written for a lot of different media, but the fact that he has a surrealist masterpiece probably says it all.
Comics that inspired movies: “Sandman,”
Screenplays for movies: “Doctor Who,” “Coralline,” “Beowulf,” etc.
Grant Morrison;
He is responsible for a lot of other surrealistic writing, and a lot of other innovative moves in the genre.
Comics: “Doom Patrol,” “Justice League”, “Batman”, “Superman”
I think it’s easiest to remember that story-boards have a skeletal relationship to feature film development.
Sorry: England and Scotland.
So there is already a sequel brewing for The Avengers???? color me excited!!!! I really am excited about this film coming out.
You and millions of others.
CR-
You seem to think Marvel does an extremely good job and box office
seems to validate your opinion? Are you only concerned about box
office?
No, the movie has to be compelling too.
CR-
Who’s been making the movies longer? DC or Marvel. I am not really that in tune to the comic movies. I see them just don’t know much about the comic book genre, except their fans are fanatical. Ha!
Actually, DC. But Marvel has perfected the formula. Marvel did this in publishing also.
I don’t know if I am asking this correctly, but who is in charge of both DC and Marvel? And how much do they have a say in the films being made?
I may not have the names exactly right but, DC’s parent company is Warner Bros. Entertainment. Marvel’s parent company is Disney.
Warner Brothers tells DC when it can make a movie. Marvel owns it’s own movie making studio.
DC has done its best to try to copy this model yet has yet to score much beyond a lot of animated TV shows and direct to video movies.
That wasn’t a put down, so far their animation is better than Marvel’s.
Young Justice;
Green Lantern the Animated Series:
Justice League Doom
DC nation:
oops.
DC nation:
Well Sherlock!! I think the problem is solved. WB tells DC when they can make a film. LOL!! This case is closed.
hahaha! And I was going to say: “Disney. ‘Nuff said.” 🙂 I don’t think Disney would accept anything but spectacular, as they should and it has showed in Marvel’s films.
It’s so sad because I like DC’s female characters.
*sniff* WW *sniff, sniff*
I know right? Come On!! Give WW to Marvel. LOL!!
No kidding! Argh, it’s so frustrating. I want to see her on the big screen in all her amazing glory! She is empowering in a time when we need to inspire women!
ITA its sad!!
great question!
CR-
Speaking of spirituality in Hollywood, wasn’t “Ghost Rider 2”
Marvel? Why did it bomb, if Marvel is so excellent?
I’m glad this question is for CR. The trailer alone encouraged me to save my money.
I saw the last ten minutes of GR 2. HORRIBLE!!
There are two Marvels. The original Marvel studio was fox. Like I said before, Marvel Entertainment has it’s own studio now. They made Ironman, Capt. America, Thor, and not all those bombs mentioned earlier.
Ghost rider two was made by Fox.
Ahh! GR & Fox!! This is getting to be an interesting case between bean counters versus artist. ARTIST WIN!!
I agree with you LB the trailer did not look good. I am also not a huge Nicholas Cage fan. It seems he might just do roles for the paycheck. I think Eddie Murphy is becoming like that as well.
YEP! ITA Francesa
CR-
What do you think Marvel could do better? It’s hard to believe
Marvel does such a good job when each of the directors you mentioned
is no longer making films for them?
At the feature film making level no director, is exclusively dedicated to making super hero films so it isn’t surprising that directors get their fill and move on. Like with Peyton Manning, companies should try to get professionals who can help them succeed
Raimi, Branagh, and Favreaux are the MVP’s of successful super hero film franchises. The point of the article is that DC should be driving them crazy with offers. Writers and artists shuttle between the two companies all the time.
Ahh! That makes sense CR!!
OB, but isn’t it commonplace that directors move around. Look at Harry Potter 8 films and what 5 or 6 different directors? The Twilight movies 4 movies 4 different directors. Each movie would have a different vision and one would think new directors, new vision, new ideas? IDK,
Great Q Francesa!
Yes! It is commonplace directors move around. However, l think HP respected the source material and the source material was good to start out with. I also believe Marvel is really calling the shots and respecting artist/directors vision. Meaning artist are choosing artist to make films not bean counters who typically have a different agenda that does not resonate with its fans. I also would like to add Lord of The Rings and Batman has kept the same director and the continuity is impeccable and the fans are loyal.
I hope that made sense. I get a little excited sometimes when discussing this issue. LOL!!
Francesa,
I wanted to revisit this question because I think it was a great one and it sorta summarizes the discussion and point of the article.
U Said: “Each movie would have a different vision and one would think new directors, new vision, new ideas?”
OB: True! What we discussed last night was the issue of bean counters at DC/WB, micro-managing established/seasoned directors. This is one of the biggest problems with DC/WB. The micro-managing trickles down to the actors,designers, crew etc… Anyway, with the bean counters taking up residence on sets to make sure their interest are being met rather than the vision of the directors. This breach of contract has left DC disconnected from its fans and its source material.
In other words if we look at Marvel. Marvel knows its material right? They select the best man or women director for the job by matching their (different style or vision) with the characteristics of the source material. Kenneth Branaugh and Thor is a perfect example of this (given KB’s history with Shakespeare) Marvel knew the Greek mythology component to Thor would be an interesting marriage with KB’s background. Therefore (Marvel being artist) could visualize KB’s process and give the director the freedom to do what he does best. So its not a bad thing to have different directors or keep the same director throughout the series. The issue is, Does the directors (vision and style) respect the characteristics of the source material?
“isn’t it commonplace that directors move around?”
Just because a director does a super hero movie doesn’t mean he/she has to do them for the rest of their lives. Many directors started out in one genre then returned once more mature. Some like Stephen Spielberg (Sci-fi), James Cameron (Sci-Fi), and Woody Allen (Comedy) earn Oscars then return to the genre of their origin later.
“Look at Harry Potter 8 films and what 5 or 6 different directors? The Twilight movies 4 movies 4 different directors.”
I think you’re mixing up franchises, sequels, and continuous film development. If you look at the entire Dark Knight series, Nolan and all involved have made the discussion of social entropy a three part drama. First collapse, then chaos, next anarchy. Each is different.
“Each movie would have a different vision and one would think new directors, new vision, and new ideas? IDK,”
I think “Twilight: Eclipse” made it pretty evident that new director did not equal new ideas.
CR- I have two Q for u…..
Why are you focusing on the directors listed above?
How come no women are in the pool you have proposed?
answer 1:
Like with Peyton Manning, companies should try to get professionals who can help them succeed.
Raimi, Branagh, and Favreaux are the MVP’s of successful super hero film franchises. The point of the article is that DC should be driving them crazy with offers. Writers and artists shuttle between the two companies all the time.
Thanks, I saw your response up above. Gotcha, essentially DC needs to get more creative control over their material like Marvel. Correct?
OB,
I’m really sorry that their are no women in this pool. I forgot her name but she was supposed to do Thor 2 but she left due to creative differences.
DC keeps thinking they should follow Marvel’s formula, which I think would be a mistake. Marvel gets with realatively young filmakers who need to earn a reputation in the Blockbuster sphere, then shuttles them to mass market success. I think if DC tries this with a woman she will likely fail due to DC’s lack of acccomplishment.
Other than lauren montgomery, who primarily directs animation, most other women would be risking their careers.
CR-
Following the much publicized publishing war, I’ve noticed that
many news outlets seem to be setting up a match between
Disney/Marvel’s Avengers and Warner/DC’s “The Dark Knight Rises.” Do
you think this competition is appropriate?
No, DC/Marvel aren’t the only players who have “skin in this game.” Though these other companies: Dynamic Forces, Archie, Dark Horse, Image, IDW, Boom, Fantagraphics, other companies are competitors the DC Marvel battle seems to get the most and best press
Yet they have an inextricable relationship because they have relied on many of the same creators.
Competition can be good; but it can also be spiteful, petty, trivial, and shallow if not based on substantial rivalries.
DC has a much deeper well of content yet the inability to make films keeps them immeasurably marginalized.
Need to sign off for tonight. Thanks for the great discussion. Will check back later for rest of comments. Have a great week.
Bye Francesa,
Great having u join us. Have a nice week!!
Unfortunately I need to go too, but I will return later and respond to any comments I did not address.
Thanks everyone for coming and thanks for the great questions.
Goodnight CR-
Great article and informative discussion everyone.
I’m checking out as well. Big waves to Paris, Ozzie and Lurker.
Aww, I missed everyone! Has the time gone forward in North America? I seem to be very late and I think that is the reason why. I was hoping it was going to be around the same time the UK clocks go forward! Damn you, daylight saving time, lol!
Anyway, great article CR! I loved the comparison, it helped me to understand more. 🙂 I’ll come back later when I’m less tired and hopefully will be making more sense than that gibberish I wrote over times zones, lol!
LOL!! Ahh! Oz! We missed u too. I like the daylight savings time gibberish!!
Ozzie,
Hopefully catch you next time.
Despite the time change challenge thanks for coming.
CR,
I wanted to thank you for a wonderful article and discussion. I apologize for having to bail out without getting a chance to say goodnight. My mama raised me better than that! 🙂
Thanks again!
LB,
No problem. I was so happy you were gracious enough to show up.