Open Book
The film Shame opened in theaters this past weekend with an impressive turn out despite its NC-17 rating. The film stars Michael Fassbender who’s getting a lot of critical praise for his performance in this film. However, the big news is the subject matter of this film which chronicles the life of a sex addict. The film is directed by Steve McQueen and adult audiences could not wait to see it. It had its third best limited debut ever for a NC-17.[1]
Opening in only 10 theaters domestic it grossed 361,000 this past weekend.[2] Another film starring Michael Fassbender is A Dangerous Method directed by David Cronenberg its rated R and opened in 4 theaters also featuring rather adult erotic subject matter so far has grossed 7,220,521 for both foreign and domestic.[3] We discussed both films in a recent article on LIH on The BFI London Film Festival by Ozzie. Mainstream audiences who’ve seen both films are responding rather favorably despite the 59% low rating by consumers on Rottentomatoes. Com for A Dangerous Method.[4] Here’s what a couple consumers had to say.
“This film could have easily been nothing more than a bloated, pandering exercise in self-importance. However, David Cronenberg imbues this period-piece with just the right amount of thought-provoking discussion and sexual kinkiness to make it a wholly unique affair.”
“A fascinating film filled with heartbreak and great acting, but also insight (and speculation?) into the characters of Jung, Freud, Spielrein and the development of psychoanalysis and psychology. It deserves its R rating but very engaging for an adult audience as it explores the mystery and multiplicity….”
Is this an indication that mainstream adult audiences are interested in more than violent action films? How do you feel about these two films? If they got wider release, would you go see them?
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Evidence of American audience appreciation is excellent for either film and I can’t wait to see both. I’m not surprised that either filmmaker is either a product of foreign origin, study, or has an appreciative foreign following. I’m not claiming that Europe or elsewhere necessarily get it right, it’s just that if the United States makes the most films, shouldn’t we be farther along in addressing the topic than many other nationality.
A short while ago an “R” rating was considered the kiss of death for a film.
IMHO, I believe US audiences and directors really have a problem with depicting sex on screen because when it happens, the culture as a whole has a hard time preventing things from becoming exploitative. And no, neither “Blue Velvet” nor “Black Swan” makes me think we’re there yet.
AMEN!!
Why do u think American directors have a hard time capturing lovemaking on screen? Do u think they go for the over the top exploitative sex gimmick’s because they know it stirs controversy?
Absolutely. That’s why I think american sex on screen is terrible, it’s so fake and unrealistic.
Do u have an example of a non American film that u think does a good job of showing it?
And I think it can really hurt a couples first couple of times together sexually, or several times, because of the fake “reactions” in the films. Sometimes I think it’s completely unnecessary because most of the time it has absolutely nothing to do with the story line.
I hate to bring this up, but I’m going to. The sexual moments in The Bronze Horseman are appropriate to the story line because those moments relate so much of the characters and their relationship. K, done with TBH. 🙂
OB,
Actually I don’t have that example (my foreign film knowledge is much less robust than I would like) but what I was saying before is I don’t believe anyone has the last word on this topic. I just wish American audiences and film community would take the subject more seriously.
Speaking of examples there’s a site named datedaily.com, that has compiled a list of films that have notoriously excellent sex scenes. Good luck I don’t always agree, yet I’m sure OB youv’e seen most fo these films.
This is the list:
Top 10 Movie Sex Scenes
9½Weeks:Kim Basinger & Mickey Rourke
Sliver; Sharon Stone & William Baldwin
The Postman Always Rings Twice:Jack Nicholson & Jessica Lange
Revenge:Kevin Costner & Madeleine Stowe
A History Of Violence:Viggo Mortensen & Maria Bello
This is only half the list. Honestly I haven’t watched all of the clips so I hope I neither bore or offend anyone. Maybe it’s not shocking but Mickey Rourke is in a number of these movies. Cronenberg is on this list as well.
Here’s the rest of the list:
Last Tango in Paris: Maria Schneider & Marlon Brando
Summer of Sam:Mira Sorvino & John Leguizamo
Wild Orchid:Carre Otis & Mickey Rourke
Unfaithful: Diane Lane & Olivier Martinez
Here’s how to find the web site.
http://datedaily.mate1.com/articles/5_movie_sex_scenes
excellent list, CR!
Thank you, but to be honest I did not make this list and think many of these films contribute to our problems with diepicting sex realistically.
Honestly, I needed more time to complile this list so some of these clips are really horrible. Still many of these films I enjoyed when I saw then earlier.
U Said: “(my foreign film knowledge is much less robust than I would like)”………..
Hmm! This is totally unacceptable……LOL!! I’m going to have to fix that. U know what your next assignment is CR…..?
I’m not sure there’s enough time in the world to correct this problem but I will take a stab at it.
ITA agree LB!
The Bronze Horseman should be the framework on how to write sexual content into a narrative. Very good example!!
Yes, there are norms that wide audiences prefer, yet terms like racy (used by the Hollywood Reporter to describe both of these films), risqué, and controversial are entirely subjective. Speaking of the Hollywood Reporter, taking a very sarcastic tone Scott Roxborough seemed to believe that these movies were provoking a titillation fest, (I hope they are wrong).
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/sex-sells-toronto-234739
If both directors can manage discussions of obsession, excessive, or dysfunctional sex without dipping into the excessively perverse, topical, or scandalous erotic territory then maybe we will have hope that adults will be able go to the multiplexes and survive consuming intelligent content that addresses this frequently taboo topic.
I will be happy to see whether this feat is even possible.
Well said CR!!
Thank you.
Hi CR!
Hi OB.
It will be interesting to see which states and cities both do well in. Honestly, I don’t think the majority of the demographics of my town have the maturity for either film. Again, I said majority. There are a few of us. 🙂
I have mixed emotions, but I’m happy to see both films doing well.
Hi LB-
U know I’m going to ask u to expand on this statement. I can’t let u off the hook on this one. None the less, I have a few things to say about this topic myself. Especially when it comes to getting rid of the spiritual element involved in seeing sex on screen. I’ve said this a dozen times. It’s the process not the act that’s compelling. If u want to see the act then watch porno. IMO!!
Oh you know I will!!!! hahaha! 🙂
You said:” Especially when it comes to getting rid of the spiritual element involved in seeing sex on screen.” Sorry I am a bit confused. Do you mean directors not looking at the spiritual side sex or…DANG’T!!!…total brain jam right now! Argh, Just explain, por favor. 🙂
LOL!!
That’s o.k. I was not very clear about that statement. It happens….:)
Anyway, I’m talking about all the build up before the act itself. I’ve discussed this before how bad foreplay is exhibited in films today. I think it adds more depth to see the psychology, spiritual connection between two people and builds greater suspense.
I certainly can’t disagree.
Ok, I knew that’s what you meant but wanted to be sure! I couldn’t agree more and honestly, if I feel I have had plenty of the spiritual, emotional foreplay, if all that is shown is a couple in bed kissing, I’m good. I don’t need the nitty gritty sex.
SMILE!!!
Ob,
But porn’s the most phony of them all.
– It’s edited.
– Pseudo professional actors engage in it.
– No one ever has a disagreement.
– All orgasms are real.
– Sexual cliché’s are always stimulating.
– Let’s not forget we never smell anything in porn.
Other than teaching everyone to be a selfish, self-absorbed, stimulation addicts I wouldn’t be the first person to say that porn destroys sexual enjoyment. IMHO, and obviously I can’t speak for everyone, I not sure porn helps improve anyone’s sexual interaction with their partners.
Yes! I think it’s quite comical and fake to say the least. I think if u are a thinking person who actually enjoy real interactions with people u know how funny porn is to watch. However, let’s not waste anymore time talking about that topic.
I know u have yet to see both of the films featured in this article. However, what do u think about the way these two directors are using sex in their films?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH *snort* HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!! 🙂 *falls on the floor* OMG! I…can’t…breathe!
“…how funny porn is to watch. However, let’s not waste anymore time talking about that topic.”
Don’t worry, I won’t say anything else about it.
CR! And let’s not even mention the horrible dialogue in porn. I keep thinking no talkie talkie!!! If your not a poet there is no way u can seduce any women or even get to first base, unless u are paying her. Then it’s prostitution, which is the category porn belongs to.
O.k. I’m really finished with the topic.
Even though I agree, thank you!!!!
Hi Everyone-
We are going to have a discussion on this topic at 7pE. today instead of our regularly scheduled time on Tuesday. I hope our new and returning visitors can join us!
Hi Everyone-
Welcome new and returning visitors to our discussion. Please feel free to chime in and comment.
Why do u think American audiences are more prone to see violent films yet protest to seeing sex on screen?
I think like you said before, I don’t think meaningful sex can be reduced to it’s mechanics alone. Even if that have had some the best sexual experiences you have ever had because of the mechanics that appreciation probably refers to something else.
Audiences can watch an excessive amount of violence because it works best when you are watching it and not experiencing it. In terms of appreciating it, I think sex can be the exact opposite.
Well I think an excessive amount of anything is not good. McQueen’s film is a taboo subject that exist in America that people try and hide which feeds the addiction. IMO!!
I think violence and sex if not critically portrayed to compel discussion. Then a filmmaker is trying to get away with satisfying film goers with gimmicks and tricks. I think so many mainstream films try to water things down to such a degree that they get rid of complexity. Take for example Breaking Dawn? I know I’m sorry for mentioning this but why is that film doing well at the box office? It promotes teen suicide, sex abuse, sex with minors, teen pregnancy the list goes on. Yet, this film has become popular culture?
I’m seeing it tomorrow…ugh…I think honestly most people just look at the “love” of two people who couldn’t possibly end up together and actually do. Yeah, I don’t know…*throws up hands*
Well R performance is the only way to tolerate the movie. He tried to add some sophistication to his character which is hard with this stuff. Oh! Please I can go on. Let me stop!!
U will give us your review later.
*smacks forehead* I was thinking 5 o’clock for some reason. Duh…
hang on and let me get caught up.
Hi LB!!
No problem …take your time.
Ok, here are my issues. And these are MY issues: I’m not really one for seeing frontal nudity. Yeah, yeah, I know that may sound lame, but it’s just not my thing. I live with a man and I look in a mirror everyday, so I’m pretty thorough in my male/female genitalia. As long as it is portrayed in a very non exploitive, natural way, I can deal, but other than that…I’d rather not see it.
I think that it is great McQueen has addressed a very serious topic, especially since sex addiction is on the rise. This makes me question is it on the rise, because sex is literally everywhere? I mean everything seems to have a sexual connotation and young children are seeing more and more of it. Ok, back to McQueen. I most likely will not go see the film because of my own personal preferences. I applaud his endeavor.
Oh my gosh, my brain is seriously having problems…I can’t think of what other issues I had. Hmmmm…I’ll come back to this.
Repeat: I know my issue sounds really stupid.
Ok, thoughts????
http://www.myaddiction.com/education/articles/sex_statistics.html
that was a great resource.
Hi LB-
I love your honesty and headstrong attitude regarding this issue. ITA! I think sex is not bad to see in film. It’s all in the delivery and presentation and how it relates to the overall story.
I especially like this comment-“This makes me question is it on the rise, because sex is literally everywhere? I mean everything seems to have a sexual connotation and young children are seeing more and more of it.”
ITA- I believe the reason sex addiction is on the rise is because of the Internet. People are interacting with their computers instead of each other. I wrote about this problem on another site that will remain nameless. LOL!! However, people have easy access to develop non spiritual relationships with people. That to me is why our films are starting to do away with foreplay in films in favor of the act itself.
OOOHHH MYYY GOSH, YEESSS!!!!! And I do sympathize with anyone who suffers any addiction, particularly a sexual one considering that is human nature. Check out the sex statistics article! I think it goes along perfectly with what you just said. I think most problems/addictions develop due to lack of faith, spirituality, a sense of belonging and being loved.
Beautifully said LB!
The statistics are alarming. I think once u get rid of faith and spiritual connection. People feel they don’t need to be accountable for their actions anymore. In other words it makes people insensitive to others situation in favor of getting their needs met. Boundaries are no longer an issue.
Lack of accountability and responsibility is rampant. One of my husband’s worst pet peeves on the job.
Ahh! Yikes! My hats off to Mr. Bells!!
BTW, CR, I really enjoyed your comments. 🙂
Thanks, I don’t know why I have so much to say about it? Yet I understand what you’re saying about the subject of frontal nudity. though I don’t agree. Encountering ourselves and others naked isn’t always the glorious experince Hollywood paints it as.
I guess I’m really deserate to see this generation tackle the topic seriously. I really hate how so many previous generations attempts to address the subject or topic frequently turns out.
I agree with you about this generation taking this topic seriously. I hope that this film, and even ADM, will be of some benefit to those that watch them. I appreciate a great story that leaves me thinking about it days later, moves and uplifts me, and gets me thinking about my own life. I hope those that see the films have the maturity to look beyond what they are seeing and really see what the stories are about.
Amen.
I thought these might go well in our discussion:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/what-is-sexual-addiction/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marshall-fine/director-steve-mcqueen-di_b_1129153.html?ref=entertainment
Great interview. My hopes are so high.
…for the film.
(Ok, I have a few more articles and video in one post but it’s so big it’s waiting moderation…I promise they are coming.) 🙂
On it!!!
Sorry! I was watching and reading some of the great articles and videos LB & CR put up. I will need to come back and watch them. But these are fantastic examples. However, to keep the discussion going.
Do u think American filmmakers pacify consumers with pretty pictures to get them to suck down the horrible subtext in some films? Meaning the lace dramas in fantasy, horror and romance so teens don’t think critically about what they are seeing?
I feel like an old man but I would love to keep teens from participating in the adult version of this discussion. This opinion feels very selfish on my part and probably will likely lead to more ignorance but I believe children should inherit something. And I’m hoping this topic is still out of their depth.
AMEN CR, but unfortunately the reality of our world right now is that we have turned young children and teens into mini adults and thrown a lot of adult themes in their lives that they are incapable of understanding. I see it all the time and believe me when I say I will gladly accept the title of “prude”, “square” “old-fashioned” and “strict” when it comes to what I allow my children to view, see, and experience in their young lives.
U are heaven sent. Again very admirable job your doing. I’m not a parent, so I admire u and Lurker. I know it’s not easy to raise a family is this day and age.
No worries, OB, I have much to watch as well!
Critical thinking isn’t really taught in schools anymore. If you happen to find a teacher who uses that tool instead of spoon feeding students as the Teacher’s Edition specifies, you are very fortunate. This problem plus the horrible subtext of scripts does not a smart person make.
I think filmmakers do pacify their consumers. Not all, but many. And I think it’s all for the almighty dollar. Yes, I do enjoy “no-brainer” movies, but for the most part, I like to be intellectually stimulated. What’s sad, is I think a lot of people think what they see in movies is real and find that if it requires a lot of deep thinking and piecing things together, it becomes exhausting. Hence “that movie was boring”.
Hello all!
Just caught up. Great article and discussion. I don’t really have anything to add though because I agree with you all. Plus I’m really tired so I don’t think I could express myself properly right now, lol!
Hi Ozzie!
Is sexual addiction or porn a big problem in the UK? I’ve heard there is a problem with teen girls being sold into prostitution. Is this still an issue over there?
I must leave for the night, but thank you for such a great discussion! I always feel edified, so thank you, thank you, thank you!
And for anyone who does have any form of addiction and have sought treatment, God bless you and may you overcome your obstacles better and stronger than ever! 🙂
Goodnight LB!!
Thanks for your wonderful contribution tonight. This was a sensitive topic that many don’t feel comfortable discussing. So thank u!!
Sorry, I got caught up watching videos, and stopped talking. I’ll return and comment later if I missed a topic I have feelings about it or if there’s a subject I should have addresed.
I feel like we openned up a giant sink hole, scratched surface, and soon we’ll be leaving.
With Oscar season around the corner, I’m we will be revisiting these topics again.
GREAT TOPIC OB!!!!!!!!!!
Night all.
CR! Thanks for being so gracious enough to add an intelligent adult male perspective to this topic. Thank U! Thank U!
Goodnight!!
Goodnight All!
I will check back tomorrow and answer any other Q’s anyone has on this topic. Thanks again for joining us!
We had a great discussion last night, if u missed it. That’s o.k. u can still chime in on this topic. Today, I would like to turn the page on the discussion and look into the world of sexual addiction, Internet porn and sexual liberation in men & women.
These two films are great examples of filmmakers asking audiences to think critically about what’s going on today and why both films should be supported and patronized by adult filmgoers.
One film deals with sexual addiction the other sexual liberation. In both cases we can draw a parallel today with Internet porn and women who’ve become obsessed with the characters of the Twilight series. Yes, it’s great to know women feel sexually liberated by the Twilight films and Hollywood is richer for it. However, when does it become exploitive of the actors and consumers involved? Do women need to see the personal life of two actors resemble those of the characters in a book for a film to be successful? IMO! Both Shame and A Dangerous Method parallel the current situation of sexual addiction and liberation in both men and women due to the Internet. Today u can see some female fan sites obsessing and indulging in sexual fantasies of their favorite actors. When does it go too far and it begin to exploit and feed an addiction? What are your thoughts?
OB I applaud you! You are tackling quite a broad and serious topic and I’m all for it!!! I have much to say but let me chew on this for a bit. P.s. the last part of ur comment regarding fans fanticizing about stars having sex: puke, vomit, barf!!!!
I’d like to say Hello to all although I’m terribly late to the party. Littlebells invited me to this site weeks ago and now I regret that I didn’t join you earlier. I’ll try to catch up with the recent articles because your discussions are really interesting. W.r.t. this topic I think I can’t add much because you already pointed out the most interesting facts. IMO one of the main reasons that sex in print and movies is so predominant on one side and boring on the other side nowadays is the constant and easy accessibility via the internet. Nothing easier than downloading some hardcore stuff whereas 10 years ago you had to go to a video store and search in the “dark corners” for it. It’s harder for any director now to catch the interest of the moviegoers and I think there is still a difference between the American and the European audience. The European audience is used to much “heavier” sex scenes in movies, maybe because there are movies on TV that wouldn’t even get R-rated in the US for cinemas (like “Intimacy” by Patrice Chereau for example) whereas the most violent scenes in a movie are cut on TV.
And I would like to add two movies to the list CR posted here: Dangerous Liaisons by Stephen Frears because of the scene where John Malkovich as Comte de Valmont seduces Uma Thurman as Cécile de Volanges, it’s so subtle but unbelievably sexy (although Malkovich isn’t by any means as good-looking as he should be, according to the book Valmont has the “face of an angel”).
And one of my all-time-favourites is the sex scene between Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie in the movie “Don’t look now” after a book by Daphne de Maurier. It’s from 1973, directed by Nicolas Roeg and this scene is mind-blowing hot – without showing any blatant sex, but I get goose bumps every time I see it. It’s intimate and hot but no porn at all.
Sorry for this novel; I have to add an apology for any mistakes because English isn’t my first language. Looking forward to the next discussion here!
Sonyyyyyyyyy!!!! Welcome and ur avi is welcome too!!! I love that u shared a European POV. You gave some great insight. 🙂 why do u think Europe has been more comfortable showing sex in movies than America? Also do u happen to know what the statistics are for your side of the globe’s internet porn and cybersex usage? Have you seen its affect on communities?
Love ya!
Sony,
It’s nice to finally meet you. I’ve heard you’re quite the “regular” on the sister site “Page to Screen” and I’m glad you are trying out this neighborhood too. The more the merrier, too many of us are American’s so please don’t worry about the language, most of us are struggling to communicate also. I believe most here believe films are seen everywhere, so I hurts us not to have more diversity. I’m sure everyone wants you to feel welcomed.
I may have suggested this, but I’m sort of ambivalent about the list of films I posted. Many consider the names one the sexiest lists of films ever made (the films not the list, SEE!!!!!! Clarity and misunderstanding are a constant challenge even for Americans too), I chose it for brevity rather than the list of 50 films I saw. I chose it to have a reference point because many think “SHAME” is a movie about sexiness, titillation, or kinkiness. My impression is these appraisals are completely untrue and are likely not the basis for the film at all. Yet I appreciate the list (and your additions) anyway because the list of films is useful for making references.
I’m not sure about my opinion about the films content because I have not seen the film. I don’t know when this film will show up in my area. The last I heard this film was only distributed in 4 theatres nationally. Addressing everything from porn addiction to challenged compulsion management, this film is available in less than a handful of theatres, yet porn is available everywhere.
not “TO BE” the basis for the film at all.
If you want to see someone frequently mutilate the language, pull up a chair.
Hi LB, thank you so much for your welcome to me and my avi (sorry, but I thought you would recognize me easier this way :-)) , I love to be here now! I don’t know about the statistics but I will try to find out. I’m not sure why but in Germany you have much more trouble if your movie contains a lot of violent scenes instead of sex. There is an authority for legal protection of children and young persons which checks every movie and then gives its approval according to the appropriate age to watch it. If the so-called FSK doesn’t give its allowance to a movie because of violence or sex you have no chance to publish it. I don’t know if the US have a similar authority.
“…but in Germany you have much more trouble if your movie contains a lot of violent scenes instead of sex.”
In terms of oversite, some of us wish our system resembled Germany’s.
Sony-
We love to have u here too!! Ahh! Great insight and additions to this topic.
I know I was tackling a big topic here. U were the missing puzzle to this discussion. ITA with CR it’s wonderful to get an international perspective on this issue. I like foreign films for this reason because sex is not reduced down to the mechanics IMO!
I don’t even know how I ended up here, but I thought this post was great. I don’t know who you are but certainly you’re going to a famous blogger if you aren’t already Cheers!