By Comic Relief
Referring to the feature film opening July 24th, LIH has already discussed Captain America as a pseudo Holocaust hero. Yet, this suggestion or attribution has never been made in the comic book series. Can we say this while overlooking other real world associations? And isn’t this always possible when speaking of fictional heroes whose origins align with actual events? Other than Nazism or WWII isn’t it odd that so little is discussed about this character’s relationship to other politics of this period or after? Though these revelations may not impact the success of the film, don’t we owe it to ourselves to discuss what the film Captain America: the First Avenger may not address?
Please click here to watch video
I believe it was LIH that first postulated the possibility that “Patriotic Americana” might not distribute as easily oversees as filmmakers might expect. Jumping on Lurker’s bandwagon with her article Battle for the box Office , Entertainment Weekly suggested that “Patriotic Americana” may not sell well in foreign markets. Yet positively, they say that only three foreign distributors, (Russia, Ukraine, and South Korea) have opted to remove “Captain America” from the title. This bodes well for the film because the other distributors are not offended with the full title: Captain America:The First Avenger. EW also said;
“While fantasy franchises like “Pirates of the Caribbean” and “Harry Potter” routinely collect at least two-thirds of their worldwide revenue from foreign markets, Superhero movies like The Dark Knight, Spider-Man, and Iron Man seem to top out around 50 percent.”[1]
Despite EW’s potential assurances, we will not understand how the world responds until after the box office receipts are tabulated, yet I really don’t think this will tell us what is really essential about any discrepancy in rewards. Without partiality I think we, as Hollywood Enthusiasts should probe why Russia, Ukraine, and South Korea might be adverse to the title. And no I don’t believe simple nationalism is the reason why. The potential reasons why may be useful because they may tell us more about what we currently acknowledge about the durability of the Captain America character.
Like symbolic characters like Uncle Sam, Captain America is the embodiment of the U.S’s pride in the country’s national mission. For those unaware other goals would eventually surpass these values in prominence, the country was founded on the principles of spiritual and religious freedom. As the settlers became comfortable in their new land, other powerful ideas would come to rival the initial ideals. The founding fathers greatly influenced and encouraged by events in Britain and France, would eventually become the greatest advocates of Democratic government. Later topics like the right to bear arms, freedom of speech, privacy and a range of other rights would be assured in a constitution that is known worldwide.
But film fans what if America and by extension Captain America, stopped looking so innocent. Speaking as a citizen, my respect for Captain America does rely on a fairly pure notion of America’s National integrity. Despite not being entirely well versed in all of the ugliness that may occur within the intelligence and counter intelligence communities of all foreign and sometimes opposing nations, our respect for Captain America does hinge on a degree of political naiveté. Many of the references used hence may require the rigorous critical evaluation by the viewing audience.
What happens if instead we learned that after freeing the Jewish internees of concentration camps, America’s CIA, Britain’s MIA, and NATO began a campaign to rid the world of the new international political evil; Communism. What if we learned that after defeating Fascism in Italy, these combined governments initiated the Gladio Network [2] to assure that the Communist party would take power outside of the Soviet Union in Western Europe? What if this group invented most of the worst of what we know of terrorism and actually killed, bombed public institutions, and destroyed property. What if we then found out this mission was greatly successful? Despite the conquest of many non European countries like:
Afghanistan, Albania, Angola, Benin, Bulgaria, Congo-Brazzaville, Congo-Brazzaville, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, Ethiopia, Grenada, Kampuchea, Mongolia, Mozambique, North Vietnam, Poland, Romania, Somalia, South Yemen, and Yugoslavia [3] no countries were taken in Europe.
Gladio guaranteed that the Soviet Union never spread in western Europe and assured the democratic and capitalist freedom we currently enjoy.
But what if Communism remained a threat and what if Communist adversaries told us as much? KGB master deceiver Yuri Bezmenov [4] defected to the United States in the early 1970’s telling us he had become terrified of the excesses of the totalitarian Soviet Union. How would we react when he told us the conquest of the Western world would occur in four simple steps?
And even today many in Europe believe the European Union [5] is an attempt to bring about Hitler’s goal of a singular world government. That said, I would not endorse any of these expressed beliefs without thoroughly listening to both sides of the debate about all of these events.
As many movies end, it’s likely that conflicts, challenges and disagreements may appear to conclude as the credits appear, but the events I have discussed clearly demonstrate that many political antagonisms continue. Some conflicts even appear to be getting worse.
Frequently with fictional heroes like Captain America, Hollywood and comics create fantastic allegories to help us learn about, understand and cope with the frequently complicated and disturbing world that surrounds us. For the sake of entertainment we’re whisked away to astonishing locals, treated to joyous spectacle, and we’re frequently seduced on these trips by beautiful and charismatic people. Yet when these events are over the world we live in may remain cold, cruel, and sometimes dark. For many of these reasons we patronize Hollywood generally and the various entertainment industries specifically. Why, because sometimes we don’t need escapism as much as we might need a break. Obviously we may continue to patronize Hollywood and hope it continues to supply us with the solace we frequently need.
Please also see: Captain America: Hitler’s Final Solution Contested or Thoughtless Nostalgia?
Please join us for a discussion Thursday, July 14th @7pE/12UTc
[1] http://insidemovies.ew.com/2011/07/07/captain-america-title-overseas/
[2] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fB6nViwJcM (Very long video)
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state
[4] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLsi0Ialvxk (Moderately long video)
[5] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0NMjmn2vWw (Moderately long video)
comicreleaf
comicrelief2
Comic Relief
parisienne
littlebells
Lurker
ozzie20
Open Book
LIH
linkedinhollywood.com 
Umm…wow. Amazing, CR. Digesting it all…..
It might be better to take little bites, and do it one at a time. The first video is the longest at 3 hours. The other two are smaller by comparison.
LB,
Unless you are really interested you can get the gist of the 3 hour/ 3 part video in the first hour.
Hi CR!
Why do u think Marvel chose not to make Captain America in present day? Do u think it would have been too political given the11 Russian sleeper spies found in the US recently? U know they are being sent back to Russia? Great! Article……
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2010/07/09/2010-07-09_ten_russian_sleeper_spies_including_anna_chapman_sent_packing_to_russia_in_spy_e.html?r=news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+nydnrss%2Fnews+%28News%29
Wow! I had no idea and you also present a great question! I can’t wait for your answer CR. 🙂
Open Book,
Thanks for asking that question. I think Marvel believes the WWII setting defines the character the best.
Open Book,
Speaking of your larger question, I wouldn’t want to blame Captain America for apathy. After all Steve Rogers took on the Nazi’s before the United States even entered the war; I did want his audience to reflect on his history and ask whether he would be involved in addressing today’s minimally reported international political controversies.
Cap will be in our present time when he joins the Avengers (now filming) next year. Like the suggestion of your question, I hope he’s willing to address some of our contemporary national challenges also.
I know this may sound like a stretch since communists tend to be the kind of obstacles that we see addressed in the Bond/Bourne/Salt franchises, but where there’s a will there’s a way. Like everything else, Cap will have to prove himself at the box office long before that.
Thanks for the clarification CR.
It seems marvel was so much more progressive with Captain America in dealing with the politics of that period I just expected them to do the same. I mean there is so much going on today it would have really been beneficial. IMO!
CR and everyone!
Unfortunately I will not be at tonight’s meeting. 😦 However I will be back and can’t wait to read the discussion!!!! Unlike GL, I am actually very excited to see this one!
Understood Littlebells.
Hi everybody.
Hello CR!
Hi Ozzie!
Hi Ozzie.
Hi Everyone-
Wecome new and returning visitors to our discussion tonight. If u have any Q please feel free to jump in.
Hello OB!
Replying to your statement OB:
The reason I wrote this article was to underscore the way Captain America was a lightning rod for discussions about conflicts in the world around him, but especially us as well. The character made the general public feel good in that they could symbolically fight Hitler and the Third Reich as opposed to just sitting back and letting the enemy advance. Of course eventually, we did enter the war, but this time actually.
Well this explains alot. Why do u think they Marvel were willing to talk about politics back then and incorporate them in comic books? Why did they stop?
I think I like everything else some sorts of stories require more research and more study. If you are trying to vbeat deadlines you may cut corners.
The problem is the content may suffer, and ultimately the audience may stop getting the stimulation they want.
I meant “especially ours” as well. Reffering to him addressing difficult topics in our world.
Ozzie-
What do u think of Super Hero films addressing present day political issues?
Ozzie,
Sorry, I’m going to piggy back on OB’s question:
Though the film Captain America may not touch on all (or any of these topics) in the article, will you think the film is a failure if it doesn’t engage the political challenges of its day?
I’m not sure.
With it set in the past (i.e WW2) the out come is set. You know what happens so whatever path the film takes it doesn’t matter because it’s over. So it’s safe to take more riskier routes.
With it set in the present for me it can be a little unnerving unless there’s supernatural elements invloved. That doesn’t exist to it’s safe. Otherwise I sit there thinking this could happen and it makes me uneasy to think that.
Then again some work very well in that category. I think it has to do with the script and the tone it sets.
Ozzie,
Is it your opinion that all period films are safe by reason that they all pertain to the past?
I do think it depends on the situations raised too.
Lol, I am tired so I’m probably making no sense at all!
Black Swan reminded me of anorexia, drug abuse and competitive rivalry in classical dance. Without the film I might have settled into my deluded and easily sustained ignorance about the field.
CR-
The European Union seems to be a major problem for GB. Can u elaborate on why u chose to focus on this for Captain America?
In the last video, it’s only Britain that claims they have problems with the EU. This doesn’t mean other don’t feel the same.
As the video claims the original postwar assembly of nations did not include the United Kingdom.
The reason I chose Captain America, was because the title alone begs for answers to questions about nationality?
Certainly it’s also an action film, with a huge component of fantasy. But I don’t believe fantasy necessarily has to be neutral or safe or non-reflective.
I think we can all agree that entertainment should occasionally wisk us away from our troubles. OB what do you think? Should art or entertainment be a mirror to the world around us?
Oh! Thanks for the clarification.
I think CA would have been more interesting if it was set in present day. I also believe including issues that impact the world allows audiences the ability to ask Q. Yes! Movies allow people to escape but movies should not be used to hide from our problems. IMO!
I assure you if the movie does well a modern day version will likely be created. If fact I understand right at the end of the movie he appears in the modern day.
CR-
U Said: “Frequently with fictional heroes like Captain America, Hollywood and comics create fantastic allegories to help us learn about, understand and cope with the frequently complicated and disturbing world that surrounds us.”
I was wondering is it more difficult to discuss complicated issues because there is so much competiton to churn out the same thing because that’s what appeals to fans? I mean what happened to critical thinking?
I think many appreciate films that make us think or use our critical thinking skills.
OZZIE or OB,
Of all of the movies you’ve seen recently which ones helped you understand a complicated social issue?
Hmmm!
This is going to take a bit of time.
CR-
How recent? Films in the last decade?
Well The Conspirator was a great film. It really made me think about our justice system.
Excellent choice! I enjoyed the film as well.
I’ll have to get back to you on that one! My brain really isn’t working well tonight!
Ozzie,
Please don’t fool yourself, you’re a life saver!!! 🙂
It’s not necessarily their faults, but most American’s are fairly unaware of anything beyond American shores. You provide us an opportunity to understand our land by allowing us to hear about yours.
ITA! CR…..
Well in that case, we have alot of documentaries made in the UK rather than movies. I’ve just gone through the tv guide and found that there’s 2 weekly ones, then you get a short series of others and during the week there’s a dicussion on that days events. There one where there’s an audience parcipitation but that’s not on at the moment. They’re all on one of the 5 main channels, so they get seen. I watch them quite regulary!
Ozzie-
What are your feelings about the European Union? If u don’t mind me asking?
It’s ok. It’s supposed to help trading but I have no clue if it has. There was one thing (I can’t remember what) that was pushed through that no one wanted. There was a vote and it came out negative but it still went ahead. I think the goverment wanted it so no matter what the result was they were going to do it. So it was a big waste of money to have the vote! Ireland voted the same way and I think it still got passed through there.
So we’re not impressed if they push laws on us but we give a good fight. A few we’ve managed to defend off. They still haven’t made get rid of the British Pound Sterling yet, ha ha! 🙂
Did u see the video CR posted about the EU?
It seems in that video many feel in GB their Independence is being taken away by the EU. In this video it suggest no one voted anyone into office who currently determine laws for GB. Is that true?
Sorry I meant to say:
In this video it suggest no one voted anyone (in the EU) into office who currently determine laws for GB.
I haven’t watched all of the video yet but yes there is frustration that the EU is sticking it’s nose into our business.
I don’t know if there is an office for law making. The bill has to be passed by both houses of parliment (house of commons and house of lords). So the decision is not made lightly and is a very lengthly process.
http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/laws/passage-bill/
To be honest I think the video is scare mongering from what I’ve seen. It’s based on a documentary from 2004 and nothing stated from the first 6 minutes has come true.
Very cool link.
I think our opinions about a whole range of these topics may vary. My point is our entertainment could do more to make some of these things evident to us.
After the 1970’s, I saw this movie Silkwood which taught me a lot about the challenges of harnessing Nuclear power.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086312/
I don’t think that’s alot to ask for, though I can imagine why studio heads might not encourge this material.
Thanks Ozzie!
Great link. I always like to look at all sides of the coin before making a judgement especially from the people living it. This was very helpful.
Yeah!!!!!!!! 🙂 We have an English woman to elaborate on how this form of government is being received.
According to the last reference many feel that the same sort of government, the North American Union, is being advocated here as well.
Do you think our entertainment should talk about or inform us of these events?
I think it should do both.
Political Dramas don’t get alot of support by HW. They are getting to be few and far inbetween. Why don’t audiences today support them? I loved the film Wag the Dog and they had a hard time getting that made.
We appreciate a lot of the same movies. That movie was fantastic.
Yes! It was quite hilarious but it made u think also? Why can’t more films be made this way?
Ozzie,
I wanted to respond to you last post but the reply button didn’t show up? Obvioulsy i wouldn’t have been able to write this article without the UK’s videos. Suddently I’m very curious about the documentary system in your country.
I’m so glad your here 🙂 .
OZZIE or OB,
Referring to the first reference in the article:
On a pop cultural level, why do you think the information about Gladio is not well known in the United States? Most movies I’ve seen seem to suggest nothing happened after Jews were released.
Although I watched the video on Gladio. CR can u elaborate on what Gladio is?
By way of NATO, One of the most perplexing and mysterious US and M16 operations of the 20th century was the organization of the Gladio Network. Gladio was organized by the CIA to manage the potential growth of communist organizations and governmental take-over attempts. Right wing political advocates were hired to create events that could be blamed on left wing extremists and those claiming to support the communists.
I don’t know about the US but I only found out about it in a book I was reading last year and it was briefly mentioned. Had it not been for that I would not of known about it. I had actually forgotten about it till it was mentioned here!
Bless you Ozzie for reading books.
I imagine 90 or more percent of America has never heard of it.
Do you think scaring a population to dissuade them away from adopting Communism was a good idea?
No! I don’t believe in that tactic personally. What do u think?
Though I agree with the results, I think most believe these scare tactics resemble terrorism.
Ultimately this belief (on my part) isn’t rational.
Again most believe these tactics were invented in the middle east and it’s just isn’t true.
I think movies like Captain America should help us better understand our world and our history.
Lol, thank you!
No I don’t think scaring people is the way to go. All options and potential out comes should be laid on the table, out in the open for people to make an enlightened decision on what they want.
I think when political parties resort to scare tactics it’s a strike against them IMO! I mean if u have a legitmate cause that’s going to help people then u don’t need to resort to psychological warfare to control them.
amen.
I love my country and the opportunities we have in this country. Here is my nostalgia moment get prepared!!! It seems in the 70’s Americans were more politically active and wanted to have their entertainment reflect that.
ITA.
Referring the article:
Being a propaganda and deception expert; did you doubt that Bezmenov was telling the truth about the US’s vulnerability to the USSR?
Essentially Bezmenov claimed our society was too weak to stand up against the Soviet Union. Given their resolve for brutality and torture do you think Bezmenov was correct?
What do u think about Michael Moore?
Here’s the thing it seems today documentaries or indie films are the only way filmmakers can shed light on tough issues. Would Erin Brokovich do well in theaters today?
He has a very difficult project, and is one of the few people in Hollywood who isn’t afraid to bring up difficult political issues. I apprediate his work.
I heard he’s a behind the scenes member of the Academy awards. I imagine this may be a result of all the documentary awards he has won.
…the last statement was a response to Michael Moore’s career.
CR-What did Bezmenov say?
He said democratic capitalist civilization could be overturned with 4 simple steps: Demoralization, Crisis, Destabilization, and then Normalization.
Bezmenov claimed “Demoralization” would only take 15-30 years. According to Bezmenov, civil rights activists, left leaning individuals, cowards and people without integrity were already helping to execute this stage of American self-destruction.
“Crisis” could be executed in 6 weeks. Crisis would purely be the occurrence or activation of unforeseen event that would lay the foundation for a change in general public’s expectations.
“Destabilization” would be a natural product of the aforementioned crisis.
“Normalization” is the last stage in America’s destruction. As though quoting a bureaucratic joke, Bezmenov claimed this stage could continue indefinitely. Claiming Brezhnev made a dishonest statement regarding normalization after subduing a major conquest when building the communist bloc. Normalization is essentially ongoing servitude or state incarceration
Well I think “Salt” and other espionage films tend to scim the surface of these issues like Russian sleeper spies. Do u think when filmmakers make heroes out of villians backfires and downplays the real problem going on. Like having Sleeper Spies in America?
I guess I’m glad that the topic shows up at all. The public needs to know what’s going on in the intelligence world to understand the health and resiliency of the democracy.
I would agree a lot of skimming the surface is probabaly the overall rule. This is why I think, like your “conspirator” example, addressing history is such a big deal.
Well this was a great discussion CR. I certainly learned from the videos u provided. Yes! I can see how people use films to escape. But we’ve discussed at length realism in Superhero films today. But it seems with films like Borne Identity, Salt and others what’s the difference? Why can’t Captain America be like Bourne?
Well, I think we have to see Cap first and then fix him if need be later. I can understand why the subplot about a scrawny guy who becomes a brawny (supposedly heroic) guy might make you doubt that you’re going to get substance.
As alway’s I think we should judge by the quality of the film.
Well CR great job!! Thanks for making me think. LOL!!
AWESOME!!!
Goodnight Everyone!
Night all!
good night.
Wow. I mean um…wow…incredible discussion tonight. I need a dictionary just to look up some words! This is totally out of my league, so CR I am going to sit and stew on this for a bit and then come back with any questions.
Really, really impressed.
Thanks Littlebells,
But I remember what you told you us. You have a husband who leaves home every day willing to put his own safety at risk for the lives, safety, and betterment of others. This law and order investment and willingness to service others is no small measure or your family’s integrity. So I think you can handle this; far less brave people than us have sacrificed for our rights and freedoms and we’re only being appreciative by asking some essential questions about the quality our entertainment.
THank you CR! THat is very kind of you.
OB, back to your question about films that have helped me understand a complicated issue: could you list some recent films. I KNOW I’ve seen something, but am seriously lacking brain power to come up with them on my own. I would like to put in my two cents. 🙂
Hi LB!
l will try to answer your Q. but this is only MO other’s may have films they feel have provided them some understanding of a complicated issue and I welcome their input. Anyway, I believe political dramas, biopics and docs provide consumers a great service that typically don’t get a lot of support in theaters.
Case in point “The Conspirator” it looked at our justice system and what it was built on, it came out three months ago and did not make back it’s budget. Also, u have “Capitalism A Love Story” it helped consumers understand what may have occured with the financial meltdown and bail outs etc… These two films were in wide release most political dramas, biopics, and docs are in limited release, which is a problem in them getting seen and support.
Oops.
“…quality of our entertainment.”
(blushing from chronic embarassment).
Will we have a chance to do a discussion on Captain America once it’s come out in theaters? I finally have let everything sink in from the discussion and again, wow, totally impressed with the knowledge and intellect on this site! I guess the only thing I would like to add is this: despite what our government actually does behind our backs and under the radar, I believe in the American Dream that our forefathers had in mind when they established this country. Whether it’s political naivete or not, I like to think that we find on moral principles and ethics. I’m not in denial of things that have gone on behind closed doors. I don’t appreciate them and don’t always agree.
I like to think of Captain American encompassing all the wonderful characteristics of our constitutional beliefs. I still have hope for a better world and do whatever little bit I can to show my patriotism and good will. I am really looking forward to this film.
Interestingly enough, I did not know that Chris Evans turned down this role multiple times.
One the difficulties of writing pre-premiere commentaries are very often all you can do is talk about the potential of a specific character or narrative property. Sometimes like Thor film producers exceed expectations or sometimes Like Green Lantern film producers don’t succeed; both are comic content yet obviously the reasons can vary greatly for success and failure.
But like Open book often says, giving audiences the heads up on entertainment content may enhance the experience of going to the movies. I think she draws this conclusion from watching the ways fan boys and girls flock to familiar content (Harry Potter, Twilight, comic book movie franchises, etc.).
That was the long way of saying I would not be surprised if we talked about this again.
Littlebells,
Like you I believe I’m extremely patriotic as well but my personal feelings about how we execute our national mission can vary. I don’t know if I said it before but though I hate how Gladio was executed by the US, UK, & NATO, I am glad about the eventual results (especially when you listen to Yuri Bezmenov). This might sound contradictory or hypocritical, but I think a topic that brings up a lot of questions makes for more interesting discussion. I really had no interest in telling people how or what they should think.
If it wasn’t apparent by the article; I hope the movie is good too.
Very well put. When I said “I don’t appreciate them” I should have been more specific. I don’t appreciate being in the dark but do understand that it is sometimes necessary. And while I may not understand or agree how things are executed, if it brings about some peace, then who am I to judge.
“I think a topic that brings up a lot of questions makes for more interesting discussion.” Exaaaactly! 🙂
Here’s what the director said…
http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/captain-america-the-first-avenger/interview-joe-johnston
Excellent, excellent, excellent! Now I am even more excited about this film and our discussion!!! *twirl, twirl*